In this episode Mariana interviewed Michelle Duxbury, who challenges traditional art hierarchies by exploring identity, body & landscape through embroidery, film & installation, as a disabled/neurodivergent, and multidisciplinary artist from a working-class background.
Transcription of the podcast episode:
Mariana: Hi everyone, welcome to this new episode of the DARCI Podcast, the podcast on Disability, Accessibility and Representation in the Creative Industries. My name is Mariana López and I’m a professor in sound production and post-production at the School of Arts and Creative Technologies at the University of York. And today I have the pleasure of interviewing Michelle Duxbury. Michelle Duxbury is an artist from Leeds with a studio practice based in Wakefield. Her practice draws on various creative and academic disciplines working across various media including but not limited to embroidery, moving image, found and immersive installation work, often combining multiple sensory experiences embedded with accessibility, allowing her to integrate the inaccessibility created by traditional hierarchies in visual art. Her work considers the intrinsic link between landscape, body and identity in individual and collective connection to landscape and how this impacts on feelings of belonging, not belonging, drawing on her experiences as a disabled, neurodivergent woman from a working class background.
Mariana: Michelle, what a pleasure to have you in today’s podcast episode. How are you doing?
Michelle: Thank you for having me. I’m doing okay today actually. Yeah, I’m in my studio. It wasn’t too busy getting here in the traffic so that’s always a good start to the day.
Mariana: Oh that sounds like a good start. So the first thing, especially since you’ve mentioned your studio, I was wondering if you could describe your work and what is the connection between your creative practice and aspects of disability representation and accessibility?
Michelle: So I guess a really simple way to describe my work is probably on a broad theme. I’m usually like interrogating the visibility of disabled bodies in society and sort of like who has access to what spaces, what places and who doesn’t. And I’m particularly interested in access to the landscape and especially rural landscape and interested in the sort of individual and collective connections to landscape. One of the reasons that I find the landscape and particularly rural landscape so interesting is because I think it really sort of highlights the social constructs and power dynamics that kind of govern our bodies and our identities. And also then like how, I guess like how that having those connections or access or not having them then impacts on feelings of like belonging or not belonging and how it can impact on loneliness and isolation. And one of, I think one of the particular reasons as well is because as a disabled person and like a sick person, one of the things that really winds me up is this kind of like, well, why don’t you just go out for a walk? Get some fresh air! As like for a start, I use a wheelchair. So it’s like, yeah, I’m not walking anywhere. Aside from that, it’s kind of this sort of like, it doesn’t acknowledge how hostile the outside world can be for a lot of disabled and sick people. And as well as, you know, sort of like piling on responsibility for an easy fix onto the individual rather than sort of like addressing sort of structural inequalities and things like that. And I think sometimes like, look, when people like look at my work or experience my work, they it’s not always immediately apparent that it’s about disability or access. But I think my work always is about those things because, you know, I’m disabled and like a lot of artists, like my work’s like informed by my life and my experiences. But obviously, you know, like disability, you know, disabled people are like a monolith. So there’s lots of other aspects of my life that inform my work as well. In particular, sort of like being from a sort of like more, like, you know, like working class background and stuff like that. And, you know, like, sort of try a lot of my work, you know, that it’s more that sort of like, the interaction between lots of different things that I experience. But I think outside of that kind of it just being like, you know, well, other people don’t have to, you know, other non disabled artists don’t have to explain why their work is about being whatever, you know, you know, about their lives, they don’t have to go in, you know, it’s like, my work, I guess, doesn’t necessarily fit into some of the sort of preconceived aesthetics that people have about disability arts as well. But, you know, my aesthetic just comes in my work, you know, that just comes from me as it does with, you know, all artists. But I think like, sort of what I do do with my work is that I always there’s always lots of layers in my work and lots of layers of accessibility. And I always really try like, to I guess my practice sort of has accessibility really firmly embedded in it. And so I, you know, there’s often like layers of experience or ways that you can experience my work or, like multi sensory aspects. So basically, I’ve always been very sort of keen anyway, to sort of make work that challenges the sort of like, those sort of like traditional hierarchies in art that tend to favour the visual, you know, like the painting on the wall kind of thing, because that’s not something that’s accessible to everyone. And I think just in, you know, in what I’m interested in, a lot of my work, you know, it’s like, there’s a visual aspect or an audio aspect. You know, trying to like move my work into being sort of like a more sort of immersive installation type of thing. And I always like, all the work that I do and everything, you know, like on my website, when I present work in spaces, I always try the best that I can to have considered things like, can I offer an audio description of something? Can I offer a transcript of something? Can I offer a BSL version, a braille version? And it’s just, that’s just very integral to me. I don’t think that these should be things that, you know, like that you add on at the end, it’s like, this informs my work, this, I guess, this sort of wanting to think about how things can be as multi-sensory as possible. So that, you know, people can experience it in all sorts of different ways. But I think as well, because I think when you’re making work, when you’re coming from a place of being someone who experiences, you know, inequality, in my case, you know, because of my disability, that often the themes around that work can appeal in different ways to people from different marginalised groups as well. I think there’s an element of, of like shared experience, well, maybe not shared experience, but maybe like, shared understanding of being excluded. Okay, yeah. Yeah, I think that, does that answer that?
Mariana: Yes, it does. Yeah, thank you so much. That’s really, really great and really interesting. And kind of brings me interestingly to my next question. And it’s, I was really fascinated to read that you have a background in applied social sciences and sociology. And I was wondering how you felt that background had influenced your work?
Michelle: Well, I mean, I think my, yeah, I mean, it’s a long time ago that I did my degree and my MA in sociology. But there’s still like, thematically, a lot of the things that I was studying, the things that I was really interested in, I, my MA sort of specialised, particularly in like body and sexuality and health and illness. And at the time, I, I wasn’t, I, you know, I wasn’t aware of some of the conditions that I have, like they flared up like later in life. So I was looking at these things, possibly through a different, different lens at the time, but still sort of dealing with, I guess, with, with aspects that hadn’t been diagnosed at the time. And so I was really, you know, interested in that kind of thing. I always say like, a lot of what I was studying then, like, I, I actually learned, you know, became familiar with a lot of artists through studying that MA. There was particularly within the body and certain sexuality, like modules that I studied, we did a lot about sort of like binaries. And so like, Human and Machine was one of them. And we were, like introduced to artists like Stelarc and Orlan And obvious, well, maybe it’s not obvious, but studying sociology in the 90s, there was a lot of feminism involved. I was like introduced to sort of like artists like Judy Chicago, and the, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the, it was called the Woman House.
Mariana: No, I’m afraid not.
Michelle: It was basically that, like, a lot, I think it was Judy Chicago and Miriam Shapiro sort of like, led on it and they had this building and like different sort of feminist artists each had rooms and they were making art to respond to the rooms. And, and so yeah, so I, I always say, like, that’s where I actually learned more about art and artists that I was, you know, at that point, through studying sociology, because I did, you know, I didn’t go and, and, and do have a sort of traditional arts education. But just because I think in general, you know, a lot of art is, you know, is about those sort of the themes that come through in sociology about, you know, who are we and how, how, you know, how do we interact in, in society and, and I think like my, my studying those areas and, you know, my interest in them is, it’s, you know, it, it all, it’s, it’s all led to a point in my work, it’s like that, you know, that was that, you know, at that sort of age where you, you, you’re exploring sort of who you are in the world. And it’s kind of like stuck with me throughout, you know, throughout everything that I did. And, you know, like, when I finished my MA, unfortunately, because like, back in those days, you just had to get a bank loan, if you couldn’t afford to pay for your, for your course yourself. And it was, it wasn’t like, oh, you just pay it back when you’re earning this much. It’s like, right, you finish, you have to start paying it back. So I ended up just having to go get a job in a call centre and kind of, fell out of that, like academia, which I think was where I was hoping to continue going in life. But, you know, it’s, you know, that’s how it is. And I was going, you know, you end up where you end, where you where you end up eventually is like, when I was 16, I wanted to go to art college, and I wasn’t allowed to go to art college, because it wasn’t like considered a thing that was what kids like me did.
Mariana: Okey?
Michelle: So, but now here I am, I’m an artist. And aside of that, it’s like, I was like, my practice is very much, it’s, it’s like research led and research informed. And I kind of say like, my, I see like, my practice as research and research as my practice as well. So yeah, I probably wouldn’t, you know, wouldn’t be where I was if I hadn’t had that, that time studying, particularly my MA.
Mariana: Oh, thank you very much. That’s really, really fascinating, really fascinating career trajectory. And it’s always good to, you know, talk to people with different kind of, that have arrived at their practice through different routes. So thank you so much for sharing that. I was wondering, in the year, in the year since you started working as an artist, do you feel there’s been, there’s been a change in disability representation in the arts? If so, how, what has that change been? And what about accessibility for disabled people in the arts?
Michelle: I mean, I, I haven’t actually sort of been working as an artist for that long, really, I’d still say, you know, I’m quite near the beginning of my career, it’s probably only been about sort of like four or five years. And part of that is because prior to that, I did actually go and do like foundation when I was like 40, with all the 18 year olds, which was really interesting. It was a great experience, even though I did feel like a bit like the odd one out. But what I found like doing that, I actually ended up rather than going, well, I’ve done foundation, and now I can continue on being an artist, I have, I found everything so inaccessible, that I actually just stopped with the entire idea that I will be able to be an artist, you know, it’s like, you know, it’s, I mean, you know, it’s hard enough deciding, you know, deciding to make a career as an artist, if you don’t face any barriers at all, you know, it’s like, the arts are severely underfunded, and, you know, they’re severely sort of just not appreciated by people.
Michelle: But then when you, you know, facing various other things, you know, like disability, neurodivergence, like, you know, like, having, you know, working class, or like low income type background, and being older is like, you know, a big thing as well. It’s like, you know, it, all of those things kind of impacted and I just, I felt like it, it wasn’t meant for me. And that I made a bit of a mistake. And I just ended up, I found like a lot of the advice that you get given about like, you know, how can you, how can you sort of build your career and it was always like, go to all the gallery openings, network as much as possible. And I was like, I’m disabled, I’m a single mom, it’s like, I can’t go to art galleries every evening, just so I could try and advance my career. And because that was the common, you know, that was the common answer, I just felt like it was, that people, … I was getting the impression that it wasn’t for me. So I decided to step back and you know, I don’t think it’s an uncommon experience for disabled artists, or I imagine for artists from, you know, many sort of like marginalised backgrounds, to feel a bit defeated and pushed away. But then I had, a few years later, my condition had really flared up. And I was sort of like, I was, I was just in bed all the time. And there was like, I couldn’t like get out of the house even. And, and one of the reasons that, you know, I kind of like one of the things that I could do, I’ve been embroidering since I was really young. And I can always sit in bed and embroider. So I kind of started doing that again. And then just as my, I was getting back to sort of like a better position from a flare up is actually when COVID first started. And then, and then because I was considered, I can’t even, clinically extremely vulnerable, I had to like, get like shield. And so I was, again, just in a single room in my house, like, I couldn’t even really interact with my partner or my daughter, because my daughter was at school, my partner was still working. And I was, you know, it’s a lot to have to deal with. And I started sort of getting into like, going to like, because a lot of things started being online and stuff. And I found out about more arts organisations that work with disabled artists. And so I’ve actually started applying for a few things that was, it sounds like a really, I don’t know how it will come across to people who haven’t like, kind of, like experienced like, I guess, like, for me, lockdown is what most like my life had been like for like, quite a considerable time, before COVID, you know, even began. Because one of the conditions I have is an autoimmune condition. So I have to take medication that stops my immune system working. So gradually, I was like, I couldn’t use public transport anymore, because it was like, you know, like, I couldn’t be in enclosed spaces with people, you, you get to realise how gross people are, and like people like sneeze in your face and stuff like that. And, and, and for me, that could mean I was then sick, three months or something. And, and there’s, it’s very complicated when you take that kind of medication as well. Because if you do get sick, you have to stop your medication. And it’s all just a bit of a nightmare. But so there was a bit of a brief moment in when lockdown first died, where I actually felt like I was on a much more like, I was on, on the same level as everyone else.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: And it, you know, and I did get like, I got quite a few opportunities from that. And I’d say that’s kind of when my art career started properly. And I started to, you know, to apply, … you know, like, a bursary from, from the Tetley in Leeds, which is where I ran base, and got to, you know, like, make some work from that, which I was essentially I made this like, I turned my room into a giant camera obscura, and made like a film work that was, that was based on, you know, and that’s where you’d see it. But even at the beginning of my career, I was very interested in this, like, relationship with the outside world and stuff like that. And sort of like, you know, how I couldn’t be in the outside world is quite a hostile environment for me. But how, you know, what is my relationship with that I also, I also got to do a residency through an organisation called Outside In. And the residency was based at The Art House in Wakefield, which is where my studio is now. So that developed into a sort of more ongoing thing as well. And then The Art House is like, I think there’s only like a couple in the whole country, it’s like The Art House was actually, the studio spaces were, and the buildings were designed to be like wheelchair accessible. It’s a very sort of like, you know, disability friendly place for artists to be. And so I was able to do that residency, even though it was still during, you know, like sort of COVID lockdown times, but they made it accessible for me to be able to safely be in the space.
Mariana: That’s great.
Michelle: Which is amazing, because even now a lot of residencies aren’t accessible to me at all. And some of that is just on the simple level that they’re not wheelchair accessible. Nevermind going into the layers of issues around, like, sort of like infection control and, you know, and all the other things that come along with being disabled, you know, the architecture of a lot of places is just not, it’s not designed for wheelchair users. And it’s such a shame, because like residencies are such an amazing, it’s one of the few opportunities you get as an artist to kind of have someone saying, here’s some money, play around with your work. Yeah. And there’s no, not all, you know, generally not like a prescribed outcome being demanded and like to be, to be a good artist, you need to, you know, just have that time just experimenting. So not being able to access residencies, I think is, is, is sort of a really hard thing. But unfortunately, I think that now, you know, the world has decided that COVID is over. And every, you know, I totally understand that someone who has a lot of isolation, I get why people want to be around people. But I think that it was a great opportunity to take a lot of learning from that. And that hasn’t transpired. And, and I think that, you know, there’s a lot for me, it feels like with disability, with a lot of like, marginalized groups, it’s all just like tick box activity.
Mariana: Okay.
Michelle: And like, actually, you know, sort of, I’m not, I’m not sure I think we’re taking a bit of a step back again, in regard to disability representation in the arts. But I don’t know, I’d be interested to know what other disabled creatives have said.
Mariana: Thank you. Thank you very much. That’s, that’s, that’s really, really interesting. And I think, yeah, I hope this, this echoes with what other people have said, especially someone myself that kind of organizes a lot of talks and events, I’m always keen that there’s always a way for people to join remotely. Because, as you said, we, we’ve seen that, that once things started opening up after the lockdowns, a lot of access, remote access to activities was cut down or reduced significantly, which sometimes means that even we see events on disability and accessibility that are actually not accessible remotely, which is quite ironic in a way.
Michelle: Yeah. [laughing]
Mariana: So, so yeah, now it’s really great to hear your insights on this, I think it’s a really important thing for people to consider.
Michelle: Yeah, absolutely.
Mariana: And a few episodes ago, one of our guests, Elle Chante, talked, kind of gave some really interesting insights on how, in her experience, accessibility is focused more on audiences than on artists. So Elle was referring mostly to the music industry. But I was, I was wondering if you found that similar in other kind of art sectors, so sectors in the creative industries, that, that kind of everything is focused on how audiences will get access rather than how artists will get access. Is that similar?
Michelle: Yeah, I think, I think I would have to agree with Elle about that. I’m not, I don’t, I don’t particularly know much, you know, sort of in terms of the music industry. But I think, I think that when it comes to disability access, that sort of like most organisations, it’s what is, … again, it goes back to this tickboxing a bit, and I’m probably, I’m probably just gonna get myself completely booted out of the art world. But it often, you know, like, it comes down to what is the easiest way to tick that box.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: And, there’s some great organisations that I don’t, you know, I think, are being, you know, taking real positive steps forward with this, but as a whole, I think that if that is the cheapest, easiest way to tick that box about disability will be the one that organisations will take. And I think the more, the more complex, see, because even as a thinking about myself as an audience member, I still can’t, like, I still can’t access a lot of culture. Because I think the more complex your access needs become, the least likely you are to get that accessibility. Because it takes, you know, it, there are lots of things that you can do that don’t cost a lot of money. But there is also, you know, some stuff is going to cost a lot of money. And sort of like, more importantly, it’s that kind of, it requires a real sort of, like, change in the, the sort of like, the organisation and the people in the organisation.
Michelle: And, you know, and that is, you know, is something that takes, takes a lot of work and commitment. And I think that if people can just go, Oh, well, you know, we’ve put, well, we’ve put a BSL version of this thing so that we can, we can have more audience people come. I think that I do feel as an artist that sometimes I like might lose out on opportunities, because the cost of making that opportunity accessible for me, actually, you know, it’s easier just to give it to somebody else. I find that I think as well, because I think sometimes like disabled artists kind of get missed out because a lot of the boxes can be ticked by working with say, like, community organisations who have disabled members. And so they can still kind of tick that box, but they’re not actually, as artists, we’re kind of like, we’re not getting that work, because it’s more complicated to take on having to work with a disabled artist than it is having to work with an organisation that has disabled members in it, if that makes sense.
Mariana: Yeah, I think so, yeah.
Michelle: And so it’s like, often it feels to me like it’s, it’s taking the easy, the easiest route and like that. And, you know, and when it’s driven by, you know, tickboxing and monitoring. And, you know, I do, you know, I do, I do understand, like the burden that arts organisations have of all this monitoring and that it isn’t, you know, and that they’re underfunded, and it isn’t necessarily always, you know, the way that they might want things to be, but it’s like, nothing changes if people don’t push back.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: But I get, I’m, you know, I am a bit of a sort of like rabble rouser who doesn’t know when to shut my mouth. So. [both laughing]
Mariana: But you know, it’s important to, you know, to, to have people that are outspoken about issues, isn’t that because as you say, otherwise, you know, there is no encouragement for change, and some organisations might not even kind of be aware of the problems because they’re not, you know, some of them might not be listening attentively. So, so I think it’s important. So, so I encourage you to continue speaking. I think it’s really, really important. And as part of, of kind of your, your interest in this field, you’re a part of the Board of Trustees for Shape Arts. And for those that don’t know what Shape Arts is, could you tell us a little bit about what they do, but also what is your role as a member?
Michelle: So I’m on the Board of Trustees at Shape. And it’s a disability led organisation and sort of
Michelle: the… It was, it was started sort of like back in the 1970s, about as a way to sort of support disabled artists who, you know, you know, it’s really difficult to be a disabled artist. And, and the sort of like the work that they do, like they sort of like work at the moment, based down in London, but the organisation sort of works nationally and internationally and, and, and it’s about championing disabled artists, about advocating for accessibility across culture. And, you know, and also thinking about, you know, that the ways that, you know, inclusion and audience engagement and creative practice can, can sort of like be more innovative around those things. And a lot of the people who work in the organisation are disabled, identify as being disabled. The board, we kind of advisory capacity, you know, some of it’s just like the very sort of like, well, I shouldn’t say it’s mundane, but things like, you know, the, the governance is… Shape is a charity. So that’s why it has a board of trustees rather than, you know, like a board of directors, you know, where we’re sort of, you know, responsible for sort of like, you know, the policy and strategic direction of the charity, you know, that that’s staying on track and stuff. And, and I guess the reason that I’m on the board is because I’m a disabled artist. And so I, I’m kind of, I don’t like to say I’m the voice of anything because that’s like an enormous responsibility [both laughing] that I don’t necessarily want. But to, to provide, you know, like, my, you know, my input on what it’s like trying to be a disabled artist now. And so, and how that can feed into the work that they do. And, you know, and I’m, I’m very sort of like, I, you know, as I’d said, I struggled quite a lot, like, trying to find my feet in the art world. And so when, again, during that period, this is the, of being sort of in shielding, this is when I sort of came across the work that Shape were doing. And I, they were looking for new trustees. And I mean, I’ve never been a trustee before. And I, you know, I wasn’t really, I wasn’t really sure, like, if it was something for people like me, but I applied and, you know, I applied because I really wanted to be able to have a way to, to actually try and, you know, feel like I was doing something to help people who, who might feel like I did like really sort of isolated and struggling with, you know, how to be an artist. I’m also on, on the board of what was the Tetley and Leeds, which is, is, has very recently, I think just last week been, we announced that we’re now going to be called Yorkshire Contemporary. And I was invited to apply for that, because they were keen to have a disabled artist on the board as well. So I think I feel like, like a lot of what I do in those kinds of roles is, it’s, it’s providing some insight into, you know, so if people are talking about, well, we could do this, and we could do that, and I’m like, I can kind of go; this is how that would impact, you know, on a disabled artist. And obviously, like I say, you know, I, I can’t speak for all disabled people, I, you know, and, and, and wouldn’t want to be trying to do that. So I’m always very clear, it’s like, from my experience, or from what I know from the other disabled artists, I know, I do try to, you know, I don’t just focus on what barriers I personally face, I try, you know, I do try to, to keep up with, with all sorts of aspects of accessibility.
Michelle: You know, it, but by no means, you know, you know, I’m not trying to say, I can, I can talk to all of that, you know, but and often things, you know, it is just the fact that, you know, having, I guess, like having an actual disabled voice there, at the start of discussions, is, is really beneficial. You know, I’m sure like a lot of disabled people are aware of, you know, products or policies that come up and you just like start by going, have they even spoken to one single disabled person about this, because this is not what we’re asking for. And, you know, and I do, you know, I think like a lot of people are very well meaning and wanting, you know, they think they’re doing things that are helpful, but it’s like, just ask us, like, what would be helpful for us rather than, you know, there’s something a bit paternalistic, I guess, about deciding what’s great for disabled people without actually including them in the discussion.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: So, so yeah, that’s kind of and also because I do have like, you know, on a very personal level, I, you know, I’ve said I have difficulty with that kind of like, getting to, you know, network with people in the arts, and being on the board, those two boards, like it does give me, it means I, you know, I get to speak to other people about, about the art world.
Mariana: Well, fascinating. Thank you so much for that. And, and you’ve been busy, because you’re also a founding member of DISrupt. And I was wondering if you could tell us what DISrupt is?
Michelle: Yeah, sometimes I think like, in order to avoid actually having to do my own work, I get involved in a lot of, a lot of other things. So DISrupt is, it’s basically… we’re a collective of disabled artists and leads. And we sort of like came together a couple of years ago. I do have to say that as a collective of disabled people, we don’t, things often take like really long time, you know, because we we try to, to be as flexible for everyone as possible.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: And so we’re not, you know, we’re not sort of always out there doing stuff. But basically, yeah, we, we sort of, we, we came together after some sort of like conversations. My, my sort of like friend and colleague, Gill Crawshaw, has always, you know, done a lot of work curating sort of like exhibitions that include disabled artists. And DISrupt actually came about from an exhibition that Gill curated, and a few of us that had been included in that exhibition, sort of started chatting about like; Hey, you know, wouldn’t it be great if we sort of like could, could sort of come together and it’s, you know, it’s like, it is about sort of like, disrupting the barriers that sort of prevent disabled artists from, you know, taking part in art and culture, particularly, you know, in leads, because that’s where we all are, you know, and we’re very specifically about sort of supporting disabled artists with, like professional development and, and trying to like amplify and promote the work that the disabled artists are doing. And I think like, what we found was that a lot of support that for disabled people around art is often about sort of art and well being. And what we were interested in is kind of that idea that like, where artists who work, you know, it’s our work, it’s our job, you know, we want to find ways that, you know, we can sort of like, support our professional development.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: Yeah, so we kind of at the moment, sort of still like trying to figure a lot of that out. And like, say, you know, we have much looser timescales. If you’re familiar with the concept of like, crip time.
Mariana: Yes. [both laughing]
Michelle: So it can, you know, and trying to have like, you know, like collective decision making and things like that. I had a bit of time briefly, where I worked at a workers cooperative, and I’m very, you know, not interested in hierarchical organisations. And, and I think some of that feeds into DISrupt and it’s like, you know, that but taking those approaches take time, which I suspect is why, you know, it is one of the other reasons that, you know, when I’ve talked about how organisations work, it’s like, you know, there’s a lot of emphasis on getting things done quickly.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: And, you know, and, and I do, I guess I like quick isn’t always the best. Yeah, so at the moment, we kind of… Yeah, just sort of in a bit of a period of trying to work out how best we can, you know, achieve all of that.
Mariana: Yeah, but I think it’s really important what you mentioned about, you know, the time things take, and I think, kind of in a way fighting against that idea that, you know, that that kind of productivity idea that you’re always producing things. And I think in a way, kind of, it’s, it’s important to kind of to respect that things take the time that they take, and that’s part of kind of making arts more accessible.
Michelle: Absolutely, because it’s sort of like, you know, going, going back to what I was saying before, it’s like, you what you won’t like, really model any sort of real change, if everything is happy to be quick and reactive, and an add on and, you know, and I think that that’s, you know, this kind of like, like, tick box culture, like doesn’t help any of that.
Mariana: Yeah.
Michelle: Because, yeah, you’re not going to, you know, it’s very, it’s very few organisations who are going to put the like real time and work into making sort of like substantial structural change.
Mariana: Yeah, yeah, but I think it now I think it’s really important that you touched upon this, and I think sometimes, kind of what I’ve heard from other other people is that sometimes they are pushed into these circles where they are kind of burning themselves out to be able to keep up with this unrealistic ways, ways of working that are inaccessible, and, as you say, need reconsidering from the perspectives of organisations as well, and what their expectations are.
Michelle: Absolutely. I mean, I was, I got really ill, sort of like halfway through last year, and I was still, you know, trying to write applications and applications for funding. And I got so sick that I, you know, I ended up, I just couldn’t, I couldn’t do anything. And then, and then, you know, it’s like, I, you know, on a very personal level, it makes it very that this kind, yeah, this the call, the culture at the moment, it makes it so difficult, because if I can’t, like, I, I don’t have the capacity to, you know, do all the work to help sustain my art practice. And I’m by no means like, I know that people who do have to, I don’t believe that they should have to be either. But it’s like, and so if I can’t, you know, and I’m, you know, I have to pay my bills, like being an artist is how, how I pay my bills. And when, when the pressure is on that much, and it’s like, I can’t, I can’t keep up with it. And, and, you know, when it makes it really hard to actually, you know, to be make, you know, earning any kind of income at times. You know, it’s like, you only need to like, have kind of dropped out of it for a couple of months, because you totally burn out. And it’s such an, you know, an uphill battle, I’m still now trying to, you know, in that process of trying to apply for, you know, work again. And, and it’s, you know, I certainly can’t, like, I can’t just be banging out loads of applications in the hope that, you know, one of them comes through, because I don’t, I don’t have the time, the energy or the capacity to do that. And, and I think possibly as well, because I’m older, and, you know, as you get older, like your energy capacity changes anyway, it’s like, I, yeah, that kind of treadmill. I can’t even step on it anymore. It’s, it’s, yeah, and, and I think that, you know, the, the sad thing is that then it means that, you know, art and culture is, is, is so unrepresentative of the world. And there’s so many, like, incredible artists who are, because of, you know, various barriers that they face, they, you know, we lose, you know, we lose their work, because they end up, like I did after my MA, they end up going to have to work in a coal centre or something. And it’s like, you know, and I think that the, the richness and diversity, you know, that, that we need in arts and culture is, you know, is then lost. You know, again, like, maybe I shouldn’t say this, but, you know, it’s like, how many, you know, like, how much, how many exhibitions do we need of like old white dudes? [both laughing]
Mariana: Now, I think that is a really, really good point as to how we lose diversity representation when we kind of, when the art sector continues working in, in this inaccessible way. And are there any kind of new exciting projects you’re, you can tell us about?
Michelle: Well, I mean, this, this year, so far, I’ve been doing quite a lot of work. I’ve been, like an artist in residence at the School of Fine Art in Leeds University, through a scheme called AA2A, which is about giving access to artists to the kind of, all the, you know, the sort of facilities that art schools have. So it’s a great thing, it runs nationally, and like, every year, they sort of like different universities, you know, open up to the applications for artists to sort of go in and use their sort of like facilities, because, you know, you, those, those things cost a lot of money, and they’re not always like accessible to everyone. And you certainly don’t necessarily, you know, have, especially if you’re wanting to experiment with your practice. But also, it’s really great for students to have like practicing artists around in the art school as well. And whilst I’ve been there, I’ve actually been like working on a proposal for a PhD.
Mariana: Oh, exciting!
Michelle: So I’ve been spending a lot of time working on that. And I have been offered a place, but I won’t be able to go unless I get a scholarship. So I’m waiting to hear about the results of my scholarship application. So far, I’ve not got two out of three. So big fingers crossed.
Mariana: Fingers crossed for you! Well, I hope I hope it goes, it goes well.
Michelle: And so I’ve been doing, my PhD is very much like it’s a PhD by practice. So it’s, it’s looking at a lot of the things that I’ve been, I’ve been talking about, you know, particularly around sort of how, how we, you know, speculating a sort of like more radical experience of rural landscapes for disabled people sort of outside the constraints of fixed space and time.
Mariana: Excitinig stuff.
Michelle: There will always be disabled people who cannot access the landscape. So, you know, you know, it’s not really about it’s not like a sort of, oh, yes, we could, you know, like practical things you could put in place. It’s very much speculative. Like, yeah, I guess I always say it’s a bit like, you know, how people reimagine landscapes in like science fiction and things like that. So, so yeah, so I’ve been doing quite a lot of focusing on that. But I’ve also been developing so the project that I talked about earlier that I got the bursary for through the panic bursaries from the Tetley, the camera obscura room, the film that I made for that got selected by LaBaina Hamid and it was included in the Found Cities Lost Objects? I always get it the wrong way around, so I hope I got that right. That was the Arts Council touring exhibition. It was, yeah, it was curated by LaBaina Hamid and they would, it was using work from the Arts Council collection, but they also selected some artists, you know, like in Leeds, they selected some local artists, you know, and artists from the other areas where it toured to. So that was amazing because my work got to be included in that exhibition at Leeds Art Gallery. And one, it was great because it’s only previously, the film’s only ever been available online and I love, I work quite a lot with like old cube monitor screens. And it was, I got to finally have it shown on a cube monitor. So that was great. But basically I’ve been exploring ways I could, for quite a while, because I made that work quite a while ago, I just sort of re-edited it for the exhibition, how I could develop this work with camera obscura rooms. And at the moment, I’m kind of developing that on and looking at creating an actual camera obscura structure, so that other people can actually go inside it. I can’t really say too much because I am in the middle of writing a proposal to an art gallery organisation. So I don’t want to sort of like, go into it too much.
Mariana: No, that’s perfect. That’s OK.
Michelle: So the idea is to have this like big, sort of quite sculptural structure that can tour and be placed into different landscapes. And people will be able to go inside it and experience, there’s something like, so… it’s really like exhilarating being inside it. It’s like this brief moment when it goes from darkness to everything appearing on the walls. As the light comes in through the hole in the camera obscura, it’s just like this really incredible feeling. And I was like, oh, I want other people to experience this. But also it’s sort of like, it’s addressing the issues around how people experience the outside world. And I’m hoping to be able to put it into different kinds of landscapes. So not just sort of like very rural landscapes, but maybe a really urban landscape. I’m quite keen to have it somewhere by the seaside.
Mariana: Oh, nice.
Michelle: Because that’s a whole other kind of landscape. And there’s also like, there’s lots around it as well. There’s a lot of stuff about rights of access to land, and sort of like all of those kinds of things in there as well. Thematically, there’s quite a lot going on. But yeah, essentially what it comes down to is this sort of like experience of being inside the camera obscura and an experience in the outside world while you’re inside it. And I’ve been looking at lots of ways that that experience can be accessible on lots of different layers. Like what might the sound be inside it, all those kinds of things. So yeah, that’s the big one. And I’m hoping I managed to pull it off because I’ve been working on it for quite a long time.
Mariana: Oh well, lots of exciting things in the future then. And on the topic of the future, there’s a question I like asking everyone that comes into the podcast. And it’s, what are your hopes for the future of disability, accessibility and representation in the creative industries?
Mariana: I think like my answer to this probably will come as no surprise after everything I’ve been saying. But personally, I mean, I kind of think that the entire system just needs to like essentially like, let’s smash that system and start again. [both laughing] Because I kind of think that until there’s like a really sort of like radical restructuring of the entire system, that accessibility, like, you know, true representation and accessibility, you know, I just don’t think it’s ever going to happen. Because like I say, it’s something that, you know, it takes real long, long and hard work. And it, you know, it, I guess like, you know, there’s so much competition around like, funding and things and things like that. And like you were saying, you know, the way that the system works, you know, sort of like with pressures of time, you know, like that, that putting so much on to people that they burn out is like, not considered a bad thing. It’s kind of what, you know, like you hear a lot, well, but that’s just the way it is, you know, that’s what we’re all working in. And it’s like, well, until you know, until like, there’s a real sort of fundamental, like, yeah, and sort of radical change, I, I find it hard to believe that there will ever that they that sort of like, the barriers that people face to arts and culture will, you know, they’re never going to go away. It’s like when everything is is yet like, quite tick boxy, it feels very, like performative to me. And, and I think it’s, I think it’s hard for people because, you know, people often, they, they do want to change things, or they do feel that they’re trying to change things.
Michelle: But there’s, there’s a, you know, these kinds of things aren’t resolved easily. You know, it needs like a whole like change, you know, societal, you know, change in, in attitudes about disability, you know, it’s like, but I think to try and end it on a more positive, that there are amazing artists who keep banging away at this. There are amazing organisations who are putting the work in and even in organisations that I would say, you know, aren’t great. There are occasionally incredible individuals who are banging away at it as well. And yeah, it would be great to, you know, I, you know, I hope that as well, I think like, it’s really hard for a lot of people, like, in terms of art and culture and like public perception, it’s like, you know, when you’ve got, when you’ve, you’ve got people living in, you know, like desperate situations, arts and culture doesn’t always feel like a priority to people. And, you know, if I was being all sort of like, I don’t know, Miss America or something, I’d be like, you know, if we can make everything better for society in general, we can make, you know, we can, you know, I kind of find it hard, sometimes I find it hard as an artist to, you know, if someone’s saying to me, you know, I literally like can’t afford to eat this week, to be going, Oh, well, you know, I didn’t get this funding, kind of thing. And it’s, I think it’s all very complex. But yeah, I wish that all artists from marginalised backgrounds could have the same experience of being artists, as people from more privileged backgrounds, I guess.
Mariana: Well, thank you very, very much. It has been a really, really interesting conversation. I really loved hearing your insights. And, and please do continue speaking loudly about these very, very important matters. And I’m sure listeners have enjoyed listening to all your experience and insights. Thank you so much for joining us.
Michelle: Thank you so much for having me. And I hope that like, if any of the listeners out there and you know, you don’t, you don’t have to be disabled yourself to, to support these arguments. And often as disabled people, we’re exhausted. And it’s nice to, you know, to have to have other people have our backs as well.
Mariana: Thank you very much. That’s a really, really important point. Thank you so, so much, Michelle.
Michelle: Thanks, Marianna. Thank you so much for tuning in for today’s episode. We will be back next month with another wonderful guest and more insightful conversations. Thank you very much!
