In this interview, Gonzalo, a freelance media accessibility expert, talks about challenges in describing contemporary performances, conveying complex ideas effectively by using audio introductions and metaphors and the connection between disability studies, queer and feminist translation.
Transcription of the podcast episode:
Mariana: Hi everyone, welcome to a new episode of the DARCI Podcast, the podcast on Disability Accessibility and Representation in the Creative Industries. My name is Mariana López, and I’m a professor in sound production and postproduction at the University of York. And today, I have the pleasure of being joined by Gonzalo Iturregui Gallardo. Gonzalo is a Serra Hunter lecturer in English and Translation at the Department of Translation, Interpreting of the Autonomous University of Barcelona. He has a PhD in Translation and Intercultural Studies, Audio-visual Translation and Accessibility. And an MA in translation studies and a BA in English and French studies. In 2023, he was a visiting researcher at the Institute of Feminist and Gender Studies at the University of Ottawa and has recently been teaching as a visiting professor at the Sao Paulo State University in Brazil. He has worked as a Catalan lecturer at the University of Leeds and is an associate lecturer in the English department of the UAB and the University of Barcelona. He combines his teaching and research activity with freelance work as a translator and audio describer, mostly in the field of the Cynic Arts. He’s part of the seminar on Intersectionality, Feminism and Translation and a member of the InCom-UAB. He also collaborates with the Catalan Association for the Promotion of Accessibility. His research focuses mainly on the meeting point of gender, queer and feminist studies, and media accessibility and translation.
Mariana: Hello, Gonzalo. Thank you so much for joining us today. How are you doing?
Gonzalo: I’m very, very well. Thank you very much for your invitation.
Mariana: Oh, it’s lovely to have you in today’s DARCI episode, and I’d say let’s just get started. And the first question for you is your PhD focused on the implementation and delivery of audio subtitling for blind and partially sighted people. And I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about why this is a key area of research and what your main findings were.
Gonzalo: Yes. So well, obviously, there’s a lot of research conducted on audio description and mainly, I’d say, in previous years, those pieces of research were focusing on the product itself. And then, when we moved our approach to the way users were receiving it, we ended up with what I was actually doing, which is psycho Physiology. So, basically, how people, how audiences were reacting emotionally to those, you know, accessibility services. So it was very interesting because, obviously, that’s a new technology applied to something that comes from basically humanities in translation studies. So it’s kind of a combination between psychology and translation studies per se. So it gives us nice insights into how people were actually reacting to an entertainment product, which is basically a film or a series or any kind of audio-visual content. And the results were not conclusive in the sense that in some areas it’s still difficult to actually say that this is right, or this is wrong, this is perceived this way or the other because it’s something very subjective as well. And we cannot forget about audio-visual content being an artistic product and therefore, you know, being enjoyed differently by every single human being. Right? What we perceive, though, is that audio description did recreate or reproduce the same emotional engagement with the products that we were also displaying for people without sight loss. That was very nice to see that audio description scientifically serves the purpose.
Mariana: Yeah. And in part of your work, I saw that you use the word “audio subtitling”. Is that kind of another way of referring to audio description?
Gonzalo: Oh no, not at all. Sorry, I forgot about that. No, because, obviously, audio subtitling is used with audio description, but we were focusing on multilingual products and contents. That means when we have a scene in which there’s a language that is unknown to the audience. And this also applies to countries where we adapt, such as in Spain, for example. We are dubbing, let’s say, English, which is the main language of the film. But then, we have some scenes in other languages that we consider, I’d say, further away from Spanish, which is, for example, Chinese or Russian. Right? So, these subtitles are left for people to read, people who can access written text on screen because these allow us to reproduce this multilingual setting. But what happens with people who cannot read the text on screen? So, we were analysing different ways of actually delivering these written subtitles in their oral form.
Mariana: Oh, exciting. And what different things did you try?
Gonzalo: So, basically, the proposal was two very differentiated ways of delivering the subtitling, one with the dubbing effect and another one with a voice-over effect. The dubbing effect would actually reproduce in a, I’d say, dramatic reading of the text to reproduce exactly the emotions and be more aligned with traditional dubbing and the other would be more of a voice-over, that means a neutral voice that actually provides a translation that is not connoted with emotion.
Mariana: Okay. And was there a preference between one or the other or was it, as you said, with general audio description that there was mixed opinions?
Gonzalo: There were mixed opinions, but I’d say, in general, with our audiences, who were actually Spanish, there was a preference towards the dubbing effect, which I think aligns more with what we have traditionally consumed.
Mariana: Yeah, absolutely. And you’ve also done some really, really exciting work on audio describing non-normativity. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about your work in this field?
Gonzalo: Yes, that’s actually something that I had been thinking a lot of actually doing my PhD years because actually my master’s thesis was on queer translation. I actually did it in the UK, and I worked with Mike Lavaldo, who is a professor there. And during my PhD, I started about disability, but from a social-philosophical approach to disability, which is also studied from queer studies, as all this work on what’s an able-body? What’s a normal body? What is “disability” within this context, which has a lot of parallelisms with like queer individuals, right? And as a member of the queer community, I had a lot of interest in that, so I started reading and reading, and then I applied basically queer and feminist translation theories and practises to audio description.
Mariana: Oh cool. So you said you started kind of reflecting on this when you were doing your studies. Where has this kind of route taken you? Any examples that you can do? Of things that you’ve done?
Gonzalo: Yeah, definitely. The first thing that I published was some work with a Brazilian scholar, Lucinea Vilela. And we analysed the audio description of a video clip. Actually, it’s a video clip, a song produced and created by two queer individuals and the images portrayed these gay couples, one of them is deaf, and actually we commented on how the audio description could actually be, you know, ethically proactive when describing these two individuals and also the singer, who is a black trans woman in the video. So from there I just applied that to all the products such as, for example, a documentary on lesbophobia, a documentary that was done here in Barcelona, that was also very interesting, we had ten different women who identify as lesbians, but they show different ethnical features, they show different gender expressions, different ages and also some of them have different visually identifiable disabilities. So we wanted to implement an audio description which was actively feminist. Right? So that’s another thing that I did and I’m currently analysing Sex Education, the audio description of Sex Education, the very last season, in which we find a lot of queer characters.
Mariana: That’s really, really exciting and really, really needed research as well. And I was wondering in the work you’ve done in this field so far, do you have any top tips for audio describers looking to describe non-normativity?
Gonzalo: Yeah. Well, first of all, I’d like to say that the way I am now analysing audio description is from the perspective that it is a creative text. So, I try to detach from this notion of accessibility services that is always dependent, you know, on the original. So, I’m trying to get these audio description text and analyse it from my creative point of view, and logical point of view, if you will. And, it is always filtered by the audio describer. That means obviously our subjectivity is going to appear in the description, even if we follow all the norms, all the standards and recommendation, there are certain things that just depend on the audio describer. So, I’m not going to say that something is right or wrong, but there are certain interests that are different, right? So I pay more attention to certain things, you will pay more attention to other things and we need to filter it because it is impossible to describe everything that happens on the screen. So, I’d say first of all, we need to consider what’s our position in the world, as in, revise our biases to approach non-normativity and then to consider some of the recommendations that already exist in terms of diversity. You have a very good one in the UK created by Vocalise, audio description of diversity and then we have another very interesting document, a Canadian one on anti-racist audio description by Rebecca Singh.
Mariana: Oh, cool. So, there’s resources kind of like a two-step approach at first, looking at our own positionality, but also using the resources that are out there to start thinking about the topic. And there’s been so much interest in this regard…
Gonzalo: Correct. Yeah.
Mariana: … in the last few years and also, I feel that it’s a topic that there’s different opinions as well as to how to approach or at least that’s my feeling from different people I’ve spoken to. And something I was really intrigued about and that kind of brought me back to 2017. Remember when you visited us in York for our conference on accessibility and the creative industries? And you had already started talking about using tactile versions of the self-assessment mannequin. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that. I remember that back then you were in the early stages of that work, and it might be worth letting people know a little bit what a self-assessment mannequin is, just in case people are not familiar with it.
Gonzalo: Yeah. So the self-assessment mannequin is an instrument that is used to actually assess the emotional activation of a person at a certain moment. Right? It is a self-reported instrument. So the person, the subject is shown these instruments and they have to rate their emotions in terms of activation of, let’s say, the volume of this emotion and then the level by which they are taken by this emotion. So, obviously, the instrument was done for people who could see and read, and see the different characters, because it is based on diagrams that represent sort of like a tiny mannequin, or a tiny person that, you know, grows to symbolise how the emotion is bigger or smaller and it’s put in different situations. So what we did, for our blind and visually impaired subjects for the PhD experiments was to simplify those drawings or symbols, and then we used some raisins to provide some relief so they could actually touch the instrument.
Mariana: Oh, that’s exciting. And how did it go?
Gonzalo: It was a very not… Because, obviously, you have to think very simple things as in like what material do I use to make it, you know, readable from like a tactile version of it. And it was nice, I had some help from a friend who’s a graphic designer who helped me with the materials and then we had to kind of repeat the impression basically a lot of times to create some relief. So that was interesting. And then we tried that out in a research… a focus group, sorry. And we got some feedback from blind people and see if they could actually understand what we meant. And then we applied some changes, and then we got our final version, and it was useful for our instruments and then some people contacted me saying that they use that also in their research.
Mariana: Oh, cool. And so, did you just do yours for your work, or is there a way that if someone wants to use the tactile self-assessment mannequins that you designed, that they can contact you and, I don’t know, and they can get one from you, or did you just use for your project?
Gonzalo: Yeah, we just use it for our project, I mean, obviously I have the original print, as in, the file that you can go and print, but we only printed two or three of them and they are at the university.
Mariana: Yeah, I was just thinking maybe this was a new commercial opportunity for you, you know, selling tactile self-assessment mannequins, very niche. [laughing]
Gonzalo: [laughing] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mariana: Good! That sounds really, really exciting. And it shows kind of loads of ways in which we can make research accessible rather than trying to make things fit in a mould. Thinking, okay, we have this technique that we use, so how can it be made accessible to visually impaired people? An exciting thing that I was reading is that in addition to all the wonderful research you do, you’re also a freelance subtitler and an audio describer. And you’ve worked across loads of different types of experiences, from opera concerts to film and museums, and I was wondering what are the most rewarding and the most challenging aspects of the job, and what differences have you found when working across the different types of experiences?
Gonzalo: So, I’m going to start with the challenges and something that really frustrates me is when I’m faced with a very, very good, I’d say, performance, but very contemporary with things that, you know, are very abstract, and things that I do enjoy in a, I’d say, 360 setting because you know I see and I listen to them and I get frustrated when it is impossible to actually have the words to describe what’s going on. So that’s the most challenging thing for me — very, very contemporary contemporary content or visual performances like opera or theatre that are very, very difficult to put into words for audio description. That’d be that.
And on the other hand, but very connected, the rewarding thing is when you are faced with such a difficult and challenging project, and your audio description really reaches the audience, and then the people in the audience come to you and say like, “Wow, that was very complicated to describe, but you managed it!” and I felt it, you know. I don’t know if, obviously, each individual is feeling experimenting, you know, artistic creations in a different way. But the thing is that if they felt moved if they felt inside the contents, that’s super rewarding. And you are being told that that’s so, so lovely.
Mariana: And what about the differences you find across these different types of experiences that you worked on? What are the differences?
Gonzalo: Yeah. So I’d say for example, when we talk about more traditional theatre, when I say traditional, it’s not about the topics, but the fact that there’s a stage that you know it’s a horizontal stage, it’s a space and then we have people walking on the stage, you know. For me, it’s nice and creating the narrative is easy, I’m going to say easy, leave it between inverted commas here. Right? But it’s easier to create a narrative, because traditionally we know what this is about. I’d say with oprah and concerts that are not really concerts because some concerts have a stage as well, as in, there are some performances, dances, movements. There’s some lighting that is, you know, related to the narrative, and some colours, etc. And that’s what I’d say it gets more complicated, like in things that kind of defy what we understand as a traditional stage performance.
Mariana: Yeah. And what about compared to kind of film and television or even museum work that you’ve done?
Gonzalo: Oh yeah. Well, museum is nice in the sense that there’s space, or at least the museum audio description that I did, which is, you know, accompanying the users, the visitors of the exhibition. That’s nice because it gives some room for, you know, answering questions, improvisation and you make sure your audience is, you know, following everything that you’re explaining. And you have time to also correct yourself or like look into different information. So that’s very nice. When it comes to cinema and obviously series and everything that is recorded, the time management I’d say is much better, right? You don’t have to suffer about that. And also, you are not voicing it live, which is a tricky part for performances.
Mariana: And I wanted to go back to a point you said before that one of the biggest challenges for you is when you’re describing, for example, performances that use quite abstract elements, and it’s difficult to kind of find the words for those descriptions. But kind of linked to that, you said the rewarding thing is when you really managed to get that across and I was wondering how do you manage to overcome that challenge? So, how do you find those words that may be at first a bit elusive?
Gonzalo: Yeah. Well, first of all, there’s always room for some audio introduction. That means providing a description before the performance starts. So you can actually provide some context to the users of the audio description for that performance. So that’s something that really helps, as in, during the performance, you’ll have for example, three different stages, and this is how they are going to be articulated, or designed, right? So for these, the first act, the second act, and that’s it. And then what I tried to use is a lot of metaphor. So, if I’m trying to describe certain shape, because sometimes stages and with new technologies, they move in very weird ways and surprising ways for people who can see. So, maybe by using some geometrical shapes or like different textures when it comes to colour as well. I use that a lot. So yeah, I’d say I use a lot of metaphors.
Mariana: Okay. Cool, thank you so much. And as someone who has been doing this for a while and has built a lot of experience in different types of work as a freelancer, both audio describer and subtitler. Do you have any key recommendations for someone looking to start in one of these roles?
Gonzalo: Yeah. Well, I’d say obviously training is important as in, I’d say it’s something that you learn a lot by doing. Because, you know, you learn different ways of performing things and you develop your own references as you go. But it is important to train yourself at the beginning to at least be very, very familiar with all the general notions on accessibility, so you are able to have your own judgement in terms of like, “these, I can do; these, I cannot do.” Even also from the spaces where you are audio describing or the place and the creative team, they are very eager to have accessibility in their performances, but they don’t know, so sometimes they ask for things and it’s like, “this is impossible.” Like, you know, because and here we have to maybe discuss a little bit, these notions developed by for example, Romero Fresco, like Friar, integrated ID or accessible filmmaking in which accessibilities start from the very beginning, right? Because it’s very nice to have a very good heart and good intentions. But then if you’ve created the whole play and, I don’t know, you have not let, not even a second in which I can audio describe, it’s impossible for me as a professional to do it. So, I’d say, if you are trained and you know the basics, in the sense of basics like the theoretical approach to accessibility is very important to then go to the professional world and say like, “Okay, I can do that, but I need these and these and these.” So, I’d say that and then a lot of practises and a lot of consumption of accessibility services as well like for the description, for example, it’s very interesting to watch things with audio description to go to the theatre, to the, you know, accessible performance and get to know how it works.
Mariana: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. That’s really, really interesting. Lots of really great tips. And in addition to your research and your freelance work, it seems like you’re very, very busy. You also do teaching and supervision. And I was wondering in what ways you incorporate your research on accessibility into that teaching and supervision.
Gonzalo: Well, so I do a lot of queer and feminist translation, that’s, I’d say, my main avenue of research nowadays. What I found is that from a theoretical point of view, disability studies are super interesting in terms of non-normativity and representation. So, you know, I am very amazed by the intersection between disability and queerness in history, from the philosophical point of view of post-modernism. You know, trans-feminism and where we are, I’d say, currently at. And so, what I tried to do with my students who want to study, you know, queer translation, I always say like, “You go and check also disability studies.” Right? I think whenever they want to work with like marginalised, you know, individuals historically and then their representation either on screen or in translation, disability studies are very, very handy. That’s something that I do a lot, for example.
Mariana: Yeah, that’s good. That’s really, really good. And I imagine that also might inspire your students to then look more into other avenues, kind of beyond what they had initially thought were their interests. So, a way of also engaging people in media accessibility and disability studies, more broadly. And I was wondering what’s next for you. Do you have any exciting projects lined up that you can tell us about?
Gonzalo: Well, yes, a lot of things going on, yes. So, as I said, I’m currently working on Sex Education and the audio description of Sex Education. I’m very happy about that because some months ago actually I got to meet one of the scriptwriters of the… Yeah, they were in Barcelona for an event, so I had a chance to talk to them for a while. That was very nice. So, I’m doing that, and then probably I’m going to participate in two volumes on translational studies that are including, I’d say, for the first time, chapters on accessibility and sexuality, which is something, you know, that is being developed like very, very recently. I remember when we published our first article in 2020, that was kind of the only thing written about that. And now I’ve been, you know, reading more and more research, which is very nice because we are kind of, you know, creating this little network of research on the topic. So, I think that’s 2025 for me.
Mariana: Oh, wonderful. It seems like you’re going be very busy then. And a final question I like asking all of our guests is what are your hopes for the future of accessibility in the creative industries?
Gonzalo: Yeah, well, I’ve always thought we need more and more people with disabilities involved in the creation of accessibility. That’s something we really have to improve, I’d say, as a society. Because it’s also a matter of who is privileged enough to access, you know, certain spaces such as, you know, higher education, and you know, other spaces in the industry. But I’m seeing that more and more, at least in the Barcelona scene, which I think is quite alive in terms of, you know, accessibility in at least the scenic arts. I’m going to attend, for example, next week, a projection of a film narrated by a person with like, well, the audio description is narrated by a person who is visually impaired and also an actor. So, it’s going to be like a creative AD. So, sort of an experiment. So that’s very nice. But we really, really need to have more people with disabilities involved in all the processes of accessibility. And then what I would love to see is more and more availability of, you know, accessible content. Because when sometimes when you are doing research on accessibility, and then you are analysing these audio descriptions, to me, it’s like, “Oh, look, this has audio description; this has audio description; this has, you know, captions for the deaf and hard of hearing. But then, if you look at the bigger picture and you analyse and you see the percentage of things that are actually accessible, it’s not a lot. Not at all. So, I’d say we have to, like, if we are developing new, you know, new technologies, we really need to increase the availability and autonomy of everyone.
Mariana: Oh, so two wonderful, kind of, wishes for the future, one for more involvement of disabled people in accessibility and the other one for, well, more availability of accessible creative output. So, Gonzalo, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been really great to catch up with you and hear about the wonderful research that you’ve been doing, but also your freelance practice as a media accessibility expert. So, thank you so much for joining us.
Gonzalo: Thank you. Thank you very much for your invitation. It’s been a pleasure.
Mariana: Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in to listen to today’s episode. We will be back with more exciting guests and more research and practice on accessibility next month.
