In this episode Mariana interviewed Dr. Samantha Moore an animator and researcher with an interest in documentary, science and art, practice as research.

Tilley, Sam and Hutch (from left to right) at York Univeristy.

You can listen to the episode with the audio player embedded below. There is also a transcription underneath.

Transcription of the podcast episode:


Mariana: Welcome everyone to this new episode of the DARCI podcast, the podcast on Disability, Accessibility and Representation in the Creative Industries. My name is Mariana López and I’m a professor in sound production and post-production at the University of York. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Sam Moore. Sam Moore is a UK based international award winning animation director. Her research and practice explore the ways that animation can document the invisible, particularly scientific arenas. Sam has made work on diverse subjects from competitive sweet pea growing, to cutting edge microbiology, archaeology, neuroscience and her own experience of having twins. Her research is internationally recognised as pioneering, having won two awards from the journal Nature. Visible Mending has screened internationally, one the directors prize at the Academy Award-nominating Athens International Film plus Video Festival Ohio USA and was nominated for a BAFTA in 2024. Hi Sam, very good morning to you. It’s great to have you as a podcast guest this morning. How are you doing?

Sam: I’m really good. Thank you. Thank you for asking me. No worries, it’s great to have you. So I thought we’ll just dive straight in with some questions about your work. I was wondering if you could tell us for those who haven’t watched it. A little bit about Visible Mending. So what is it about and what was at the source of inspiration? Yeah, so Visible Mending is a short animated documentary funded by the BFI and made through Media Active projects. It is a series of interviews with older knitters about what knitting has done for them in their lives, like how knitting has helped them with various different problems or just in kind of allowing them to come to terms with changes in their lives as people get older and as life changes as it does for all of us. It was inspired by, well, my mum was very unlucky and she got early onset dementia in her very early 60s. And she was the knitter in our family. She always used a knit and she knitted from me very regularly. And one of the first things she lost was her ability to retain a pattern so she couldn’t knit patterns anymore. And it just sort of struck me along with the grief and the upset that comes with that kind of diagnosis in a family. It also struck me how fascinating it was the way which knitting kind of still played a part in her life because although she couldn’t follow a pattern, she could still knit. She could still go through the physical process of knitting. And I’m very interested in animation and the way I make animated documentaries normally and a very interested in the way that animation can be used, particularly kind of in a scientific context to be able to explain, explore, evoke, you know, kind of dive into the material of the science, beyond the words, you know, more an interesting way of kind of being able to unearth different ways of understanding complex subjects such as how knitting helps us and how knitting changes our brains perhaps too.

Mariana: Well, thank you. Thank you very much for that explanation. And the film is available online on your Vimeo page so people can go and watch it there. And definitely the recommendation is please go on, watch Visible Mending is an absolutely beautiful film and an opportunity Sam to help, to congratulate you and the rest of the wonderful team for all the success you’ve had with your production.

Sam: Yeah, it’s been really exciting. So the film premiered in Syros, Greece at the festival there check last autumn. But then we were and it screened in various festivals, including the London International Animation Festival and Manchester Animation Festival. But we were lucky and we got a BAFTA nomination. So really, you know, that was really super exciting. Although we didn’t win the BAFTA, we were just so honoured to be in the final three. And I think it kind of speaks to the exciting place that British animation, independent animation is at the moment that there were three amazing films in totally different medium. Our film is stop motion. The other films, one was drawn and one was CG. So it was cool. Yeah.

Mariana: Huge, huge congratulations, really well-deserved success and recognition. Of course, we’ve come across each other’s paths through the world of accessibility and particularly accessibility through visual impaired audiences. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how before Visible Mending, how did you work on accessibility and what do you feel is the role of accessibility as a director in your work?

Sam: Yeah, I think accessibility is important, of course. No one’s going to disagree with that. But I think there has been a kind of critical mass of interest around accessibility issues in filmmaking in the last few years. I’ve been making films, you know, for 25 years. And I would say in the last five years, it’s become a much more sort of foregrounded area of the filmmaking process and particularly the post-production process, I would say. But with Visible Mending, we definitely wanted to have accessibility at the centre of the film right from the start. Like it was important to us to have those issues considered. So, for example, when we were pitching the film, one of the things that we agreed that we would do would be to try and get the film out to different audiences. I know it’s not quite the accessibility issues that you’re talking about, Mariana, but it’s kind of accessibility in a wider sense.

Mariana: Yeah.

Sam: Lots of people who see short films, you know, they watch them on their phones or they watch them at cool film festivals in the middle of cities, you know, late at night and they’re maybe young, maybe, you know, kind of middle class, maybe more likely to be white perhaps. So, the accessibility around, you know, getting different audiences and particularly we have taken our film out, for example, to yarn festivals and to rural communities, like to church halls and things and had screenings and had conversations. So, I think accessibility in its broadest sense is something that I’m really interested in and increasingly so, and particularly for this film because it’s about an older community and perhaps don’t necessarily always see themselves reflected on screen. So, it’s super important that if you are a member of that community and you would like to see our film or hear our film, then you are able to experience it in every possible way as well as we can help you to do so.

Mariana: Oh, yes, thank you so much. That’s really great to see that you’ve done so much work. And yes, it’s a really good point, a lot of film formats and types of production are so restricted in who actually gets to watch them and there’s a lot of people missing out. So, that’s a really great connection to the work. In terms of accessibility for visually impaired people, we worked on integrating Enhanced Audio Description to your work and we did this through sound design. And I was wondering if you could tell us what attracted you to the idea of using EAD rather than traditional audio description?

Sam: So, I have to be careful here. [both laughing] I’ve used audio description twice before on two of my previous films and it was a really interesting experience. I mean that in the full sense of the world was interesting. So, the last experience I had was a film that we made called A Language of Shapes that was made through Animate Projects. And for that, we had an actor come in and, well, she didn’t come in. I never met her, but she did an enhanced audio description based on a script that we kind of wrote. And that was really fun. It added so much to the film, but it kind of added so much that I hadn’t necessarily intended to the film. And she was wonderful and amazing and all the rest of it. Previous to that, we had worked in a film where the audio description was sent to a company and I’m pretty sure it was AI. It was very, it was kind of how to do a slightly robotic element to it. It wasn’t very human. But also what was really interesting was working with the audio description company because of course there were companies that specialised in this and their job is to do that, is that even though we sent them a copy of the script, they still drew some conclusions about characters. For example, in the film that I had made, there was a female character who was the leader of a community. And yeah, when we got the script back for the audio description, they kept saying, “She’s the mother,” or “She’s the…” And I was like, [laughing] “Oh, she is a mother, but it’s not her job.” [laughing] And it was just kind of really interesting. So it highlighted the way which subconscious bias affects the sort of course and the more we can hold each other accountable for that, the better. But also just that actually handing over control of that, and I speak as an animation director, so by necessity, I’m a control freak. I can’t even work with …, you know, I have to literally make all my actors. [laughing] But so I think that you don’t necessarily want to see control of something that is going to impact some of your audience. The whole point of being a filmmaker is you’re talking to an audience. And if you’re talking to an audience and yet you’re doing it through a translation that you don’t think is perhaps correct, then you need to address that. And so the opportunity to work with an Enhanced Audio Description was ‘A’, fascinating, like what an interesting idea. And ‘B’, just a great opportunity to kind of immerse myself as a director in the process of, you know, how does this, how do we do this? You know, what other ways are, how can we do this better? Because there’s a director, of course, that’s what you always want. How can I do it better? How can I, how can I, you know, do a better job, make this more impactful for my audience? So it was wonderful. And then meeting you and the team was just like a brilliant experience, which really just layered so much into our film. I’m eternally grateful.

Mariana: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And it’s really interesting to hear, yes, about this experience. Um, about how something can change its meaning quite drastically when you kind of send it to someone else that adds a layer of meaning to something that already exists. And, uh, misunderstandings. And as you say, misunderstanding that ours [unintelligible], um, are kind of grounded in unconscious bias can be particularly damaging, doesn’t it? Because it reaches a visual impaired audience with this new meaning that was never the intention or as you were suggesting, even the opposite of the intention that you had when you made, uh, then you made the film. So something to think about, I guess, for, for accessibility in general. Um, to make Visible Mending accessible, one of the things that we did was go back to the very, very original audio recordings you did with contributors and try to find bits of audio that hadn’t made it to the final cut of the documentary, but could help us explain things that were on screen. And there, uh, the aim, uh, just for people listening was to have descriptions that were in the voices of the young contributors rather than another, uh, kind of external voice explaining what was on the screen. And then on top of that, um, we, uh, created an imaginary conversation between the contributors and, uh, an external voice recorded by Pete Johnson, who did a fantastic job and that allowed us to explain what was on the screen a little bit, uh, even more clearly. Um, but we also worked quite a lot in thinking about sound effects and spatialisations

Sam: and how those can be a vehicle for access in addition, uh, or even more so than sometimes verbal explanations. And I was wondering for you, what was the process of building that additional layer? So having to go back to those, uh, recordings and what people said, uh, and, and integrating them, but also listening to it, uh, come together. So what was that experience for you?

Sam: Yeah, it was really interesting. And I think as with everything, you know, you go through a process once and you think, oh, okay, I would do this differently next time. But I think the, the different needs that, you know, perhaps we can talk about that later, but, um, process of this was … The project itself, Visible Mending, although we, we got funding from BFI and it was wonderful. But before that, we had funding from Arts Council England, just a little bit of seed funding. And so I’d actually spent three years kind of travelling, getting the bus out to Stretton I live in Shropshire and getting to Stretton, which is the kind of little, you know, kind of like community in the Shropshire Hills and going to a church hall where there was a community, a community centre rather where there’s a knitting group and I’d had these conversations and really luck conversations with the knitting group and with the knitters. So really luckily, um, one of the knitters Kate Johnson was married to Pete Johnson, who’s a retired radio technician. And quite early on in the process, Pete said, would you want me to record these conversations? And I was like, oh gosh, yeah, that would be amazing. I hope that one day we would be able to make it into a film, but I couldn’t think of a way we were going to do it because, you know, the way I envisaged it was quite, quite big, you know, by animation standards, you know, quite expensive and actually BFI turned up chunks of that and it was wonderful. But at the time it was all just a dream. And so as a result of Pete’s kindness and offering to record these interviews, I actually had kind of several hours of interview archive with the, with the, with the participants. And so although some of that made its way into the film, loads of it didn’t. And so we were able to then read over the transcripts of what had been said and pick out bits that we thought would be useful for the Enhanced Audio Description. So it was a way of kind of expanding the conversation without having to go back to the interviewees because, you know, as, as is natural, time had passed. It was, this film was five years in the making by the time that the film was put together, not all of the participants were with us anymore. And so, you know, one of them had passed, one of them had moved away. You know, one of them had developed some issues around memory. You know, it was just, that was the nature, you know, it’s the nature of time. So it was really fantastic to be able to go back and do that. And also to invite Pete into the process, he had been the technician, as I’ve explained, he had recorded that material. But then getting him to actually, I didn’t realize that along with being a radio technician, a retired radio technician, he had also been, he’d also been a radio presenter in his youth. And he does have a marvelous voice. I mean, he does have a marvelous voice. [both laughter] Somebody described it as kind of like a bagpus type voice. And I think there’s a kind of small films, you know, kind of all of a post-gate kind of quality to his, to his voice, beautiful voice. And so he was able to kind of like, because he’s very good and he’s very relaxed, he was able to incorporate a kind of conversational tone into the lines that we gave him. So rather than in the past when I’ve worked with audio description, it’s been even with a lovely lively voice, it’s been very much, I’m describing what you are not seeing, you know, I’m describing the visuals that were on screen, I’m describing this and that. Instead, he was actually inserting himself into the frame, you know, inserting himself into the soundtrack, not in an intrusive way, but in a really beautiful way, because he knows the people involved, he’s familiar with their voices, and he’s able to, he was able to kind of tap into a lovely, you know, a lovely quality, which I think just brings such a… And I’ve had several people say they prefer the Enhanced Audio Description to the original audio description, who don’t have a visual impairment. And yeah, which is the ultimate compliment.

Mariana: Yes, thank you very much! I was particularly pleased to hear that. [both laughing] But yeah, I agree, Pete did such a beautiful job and I like how he describes it, you know, he puts himself in the frame and I think that’s a really lovely way of kind of describing it, because yes, it’s exactly how you feel. He’s one more character in a way kind of talking to this other voices in a very natural way. And I remember there was a moment in the studio when we were with Gavin Kearney as well, and we were editing it in and it was so… It felt quite magical, didn’t it, when you start putting that conversation together and it just works?

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s also that it is the nature of a documentary because, I mean, obviously you’ll be able to speak to the way in which you would kind of more normally work, I guess, if you were making fiction drama or something where there were actors who could be called back in. But with the documentary, it is by its nature of the moment, you know, and so it requires, I guess, a different way of working. But we dropped really lucky. I mean, we did try out some different ways of doing it, didn’t we? [both laughing]

Mariana: There was a moment where we had you, remember?

Sam: I know, I know, and I just hated it because I’m not an actor and I felt so self-conscious of saying these lines, but it was as soon as Pete, you know, I think I gave him a call and said, “Pete, what do you consider? What do you reckon?” And he was like, “Oh yeah, sure, I mean, he’s very generous, up for everything.” And then as soon as he said, “Yes,” and then started to send you know, started to send his lines over, it was very clear, straight away, this is perfect, you know, this is definitely going to work. Yeah.

Mariana: Yeah, and Pete was just to start with that, he’s very generous as well because we, …. just for the listeners that mind known this… When we go through the process of EAD with productions, we have a stage in which we actually test what we’ve done with the visual impaired audiences in the context of a focus group and a survey, just to get ideas of whether it’s working or not. And based on that, we suggest a number of changes. And one of the things that came out was that a couple of extra lines might help us clarify few meanings that we have missed in the first version. And Pete very kindly went back and recorded some more lines so that we could address the comments of the focus group. So we’re definitely very grateful to Pete. And was there something, there was also, in the case of Visible Mending, there was also a lot of kind of layering of additional sound effects to go in combination with a beautiful original sound design. And I was wondering how that felt for you as well, to have that additional sound design layer.

Sam: Yeah, I think it was interesting. We were, we brought our composer and sound designer, Hutch Demouilpied, along with us, to the University of York to work with you as well. And that was really important to me because as an animator, all the sound, well, not all the sound because I make animated documentary, but much of the sounds that we use in animation is created, especially for the film. So normally with animation, you know, with an animated fiction film, there is no sound to be captured. You know, you have to make everything up from scratch. And so Hutch and I have worked really closely over the previous kind of more than a year working on the soundtrack. So elements that we brought in needed to be, you know, okay with her and also just make sure that we didn’t do, as we spoke at the beginning, about the ways in which audio description can sometimes skew or take the film outside of the control of the filmmakers, you know, that it was still something that was absolutely sympathetic to the film itself. And I think you were really sensitive to this, Mariana, and really understood, you know, that kind of fine line that needed to be tried between, on one hand, making this as, you know, impactful and expressive enough that a visually impaired person could get the sense of it, but also that you’re not taking it too far away from the original intention. And I mean, I would say that it really helped as well that Hutch had worked a lot with, for example, she’d done lots of recording of knitting needles of different types and Hutch isn’t a knitter, so I was sort of explaining to her, you know, like, just sort of showing her the difference between a bamboo knitting needle and a metal knitting needle, you know, that you think knitting needles is just a generic sound, but actually a pair of bamboo needles and a pair of metal needles will make a very different sound to each other. So that was, that was a really fun, the fun week we had messing around with those different things. So yeah, I think one of the things I enjoyed most about the process with you and your team was the collaborative nature of it, which is always my, always my kind of aim with filmmaking to make it as collaborative as possible, and the collaborative process that we went through in kind of putting those sounds in, and perhaps, you know, sort of like taking some sounds down and replacing them or enhancing them with something that was a bit more descriptive for a visually impaired audience. I think that was a really lovely, sensitive process that, you know, I was really happy with. Oh, thank you, thank you so much. And you know, thank you so much as well to you and everyone in the production, for entrusting us with this, because we know how difficult it can be when you start changing things, and people start hearing what they got used to hear in a different format differently, but also it sometimes changes how you see things as well. I know it kind of, it can be quite a, quite a kind of a challenging process for everyone to kind of work in those changes, and we’re always really grateful for directors and other creatives for kind of entrusting us with their, with their creation and, and the changes to make it, to make it accessible. And I was wondering if there’s anything that’s surprised to you about the, the process or, or the end product. [both laughing]

Sam: I think I was really pleasantly surprised by how much richness it brought, you know, like, and I hate, you know, I hate to keep bringing it back to those other audio descriptions, because they were perfectly fine, but, but they were kind of like, “Oh, job done”, you know, that’s something that sorted. “That boxes is ticked” kind of approach to getting audio description done. And I think that with this film, I’ve already said that some people have said that they prefer the version with the Enhanced Audio Description. And it’s really cool because on Vimeo, where we’ve had the film… the film was featured in the New York Times over Christmas, which was terribly exciting. And because of that, it was, it was put online. So as a result, we put it the whole thing online ourselves on Vimeo, perhaps a little bit sooner than we might have done, but really pleased we did that because it’s been, the feedback has been fantastic. But one of the things that you can do on Vimeo is on settings, you can change the soundtrack. So you can have it running with a regular soundtrack, and you can also have it run running with the Enhanced Audio Description and soundtrack. And I love that kind of, that duality, you know, that you can have the two things running together. But yeah, it has surprised me at how, you know, how it sort of developed the film for me as well it sort of changed my ideas about the film a really positive way. I never had any negative feelings about this film because this film has been a joy from beginning to end to make. But yeah, so Kate, who was Pete’s wife, she died during production. And we knew she was going to die because she had been diagnosed with liver cancer and was given a few months to live. And so it was obviously an awful time for all of us. She’d been such a central part of the film. And obviously, she was the centre of Pete’s life. And so the fact that he was generously offering to do the Enhanced audio Description was a big deal. But what was an even bigger deal, I feel, is listening to him talk with Kate on the soundtrack because he was talking to her as if she were there. And she was just a voice track then, you know, she had gone. And so for me, it brings a beautiful, you know, devastating, but beautiful kind of layer to the filml To have that special, you know, there’s something really special there. And I hope, I mean, God, what do I know? But I really hope that, you know, that kind of helped Pete with his grieving process. It felt like it felt like a very special thing to be part of. And I don’t think any of us could have anticipated that.

Sam: Yeah, I’m really glad you mentioned that. And it’s kind of that really meaningful kind of layer that audiences, of course, would not know this, but has given kind of a new meaning to you and Pete as well. So thank you very much again to Pete for all his work on this. We love the work he did. What is next for you? So are there any plans for a next production or any other project that you can tell us a little bit about?

Sam: [Sam laughing] Well, I’m having a little rest at the moment, because it has been five years of super intensity. But yeah, but I do hope to continue to make, you know, to make another film. I think I love the whole process, and I’m really lucky. I love my job. I also am Head of Animation at the Royal College of Art in London. And so I get to be involved with lots of animated films, which I absolutely adore. But I’ve got sort of plans in the back of my mind for a new project. And one of the things that I know I want to do is to kind of include my … you know, accessibility, kind of concerns addressing accessibility right from the very beginning. You know, I think the beauty and the tragedy of what we do is that as soon as you finish doing something, you realise how you could have done it better. So you’re like, oh, if only I had, if only I had, you know, so now I think, you know, I kind of have have an ear open for the extra lines or the extra material, or just perhaps a different way of kind of thinking about ways in which I might capture data. And that could be included, perhaps in the Enhanced Audio Description, but also perhaps in other ways, you know, in other things. And I think that, yeah, … so I’m sorry, [laughing] I’m sounding cryptic. But yes, I’m looking forward to making a new project, whatever that is. I’ve so enjoyed doing this one. I feel like maybe there’s space to do something else. But I also have lots of other ideas on the boil as well, as most artists do. So yeah, I’m looking forward to doing that, going forward. And maybe next time we will win the BAFTA. [both laughing]

Mariana: And yeah, I’m sure you will do, you know, your work is wonderful. And I’m sure you’ll do many more exciting projects and productions. And it’s been, it’s really good to hear you saying, well, that it’s kind of changed your way of thinking about the process. And kind of, that speaks to kind of, in a way, the kind of the aim of our project, of course, is to, you know, create an alternative to audio description through sound design. But in the process, by working with filmmakers, it is about as well, raising awareness, so that people can think about what they might need to make their projects accessible, as you say, from earlier, earlier on. And then as filmmakers start thinking about this earlier and earlier, in a way, everything becomes more accessible, because people have had those thoughts in their head, in addition to all the other considerations. And it’s interesting, because I mean, you’ve met Joseph Inman who directed Spines, that is another film we also worked on. And one of the things that came up with Joe is when we were giving him some of the feedback on the work that we had done, and the work we did with with the focus group. One of the things he said, he said, “Oh, like, next time, I’m definitely going to think about using this type of cut, because, had I known it was going to generate maybe a challenge for accessibility”, he was like, “I would have used something else. And I would have been happy to use something else. I didn’t need to use that.” So it’s quite interesting when he just naturally just said, “Oh, you know what, that’s something for me to take for next time.” So it’s really good that this work we do is also generating those conversations and those kind of awareness, I guess, is the word. And so I’m definitely looking forward to watching your new productions after you’ve had a break. I think you’re really server break every time I look at your social media accounts, you seem to be traveling somewhere else to another festival. [both laughing] So I think goodness, you must be exhausted. And a final question we like to ask all our guests is, what is your hope for the future of accessibility? And what do you feel is the role that filmmakers can play in that future?

Sam: I think my hope is that accessibility continues to be a normalised part of filmmaking, you know, that it’s not a kind of special thing that you’re adding on, but it’s actually just an absolutely integral part of the production itself, which I think it absolutely should be. And I think that filmmaking in general is kind of growing to include, to be more inclusive in lots of different ways. And I think this is a really key thing that it needs to add to its armoury of different ways of working, you know, because we want the maximum audience that we possibly can. We want everybody to have a powerative experience as well. It’s not to say that everyone will have exactly the same experience of every film, but that’s true in any case. But at least there is a kind of equality of access to be able to have some sort of experience that is the same. And, oh, yeah, I’m sorry, what was the second part of the question?

Mariana: What do you think, what do you feel is the role of filmmakers in that future for accessibility? Yeah, I do think it’s the role of filmmakers, but I think it’s the role of funders as well. I think that as individual filmmakers, you can kind of say, oh, I’d really love to do this, or, you know, this is really interesting. And for me, as an individual filmmaker, this is something which I have a great interest in. You know, my PhD was around, you know, representing different brain states on film. And I was representing audio, visual synesthesia and hypopagnosia and phantom limb syndrome. So, you know, that idea of sort of like a neurodivergence and a neurodiversity of experiences is really important to me. But I’m a single person and it might be a kind of intellectual conceit of me to kind of be like, oh, what an interesting idea. But I think in order to really normalize it, it needs to be a stipulation of funders. And in the same way that we have to explain how we, you know, we have to sign up to the Albert Agreement for every production you do, which is about, you know, your impact on the planet when you make a film, which is surprising, can be surprisingly high and can be reduced. And I think it would be great if there was something similar for accessibility around that, you know, that you had that you, you know, not to be too so prescriptive about it, but just as a matter of humanity and a matter of politeness, you know, that you make your films accessible to any people as possible. Why would you not? You know, how could you possibly argue against it?

Mariana: Yeah, and I’m really glad you made that comparison with Albert, because the University of York, the School of Arts and Creative Technologies is part of the Albert Educational Partnership. And I actually teach on sustainability and filmmaking and how to use their tools. And I have often compared accessibility with the Albert’s team in the sense that, yeah, it’s about racing awareness and kind of encouraging people to do the right thing and to think about things they would otherwise not have thought about. So I’m glad that you kind of made that connection. And really great point about funders, something that we hear a lot from productions is, and productions of different scales is the idea of, well, how much is this going to cost? How much is it going to cost me to make this accessible? And is something that is more kind of newer, more innovative, is that going to be more expensive? And people really worry about the financial implications. And I think you make a really good point as to how on board funders need to be in relation to considering that there is a cost to the production of accessibility and high quality accessibility. And a great opportunity to actually thank the British Film Institute for putting us in touch, because this is how we met. And they have just for context for people listening. Yeah, I sent a couple of years ago some information to the BFI and said, this is what we do. We’d love to be able to work with filmmakers. We will produce the work for them. And as we produce the work, we will learn more about our own methods and how they adapt to the productions. And they will get the accessible version for the productions. And they were really, really on board and shared the information with different filmmakers. And that’s how we’ve made loads of our connections. So thank you so much to the BFI. And thank you for responding to the suggestion from the BFI.

Sam: Well, I think yeah, it was interesting actually, because the reason the BFI suggested you to us was because we were talking about accessibility issues with our film. So they kind of recognised that that was of interest to us. And I think we were talking, as I said at the start, you know, around accessibility and audience, you know, just thinking about, let’s take this to different audiences. And they were like, oh, if you’re interested in accessibility, you know, maybe you should be talking to Marianna. And that was, and so that was great to have that link, because we would never have found you otherwise. And it was really wonderful to, you know, to make that connection. But yeah, I do think it’s really important to kind of to normalise that need for accessibility, you know, because Visible Mending is a passion project of mine. You know, I kind of we we’ve got great funding. We have had amazing support. It’s been really fantastic. But it is a kind of it’s the central plank of the film that it should have accessibility. And there might be just, you know, just regular stuff that perhaps, you know, the director doesn’t have a particular interest, but would be would be cool to know about it. But you know, like, how much the other thing is, you know, how much my time is it going to take up? You know, that could that could also be an issue. And I think that by normalising it, by making it a kind of something that needs to be done rather than something that’s nice to be done, then that that means that everybody must take it into account. And I think that would be great.

Mariana: Oh, thank you so much. It’s a wonderful note to end today’s episode on. Thank you so much, Sam, for well, for working with us and offering all your expertise, but also giving us access to your wonderful production. We are super pleased that you have such success with your film. First time I watched your film, I was just, I was like, “Oh my God”, I told my colleague, Gavin, “We need to work on this. I love it. I just, this is so good.” And it was just that combination on absolutely beautiful animation, but this truly moving stories that the first time I watched it, I was like, I just had my tissue like crying. I’m like, “Oh goodness.” And it was, it was really a joy to be able to be part of making it such a wonderful production accessible for visual impaired audiences. So thank you so much for that. And also, thank you so much for sharing all your experiences with us today.

Sam: Thank you. And thank you so much, your kind words. I really appreciate that. And I’m glad that it touched you as well. But yeah, thank you. Thanks.

Mariana: Thank you very much. I might even take up anything. Who knows? [both laughing] Thank you everyone for tuning in for this new episode. We will be back next month with a new guest and more exciting discussions on disability and accessibility. Thank you very much for listening.